Building Bridges Muslim and Jewish Voices Find Common Ground with Kirana Sidin

0:04 Hi, you're listening to Adventure on W4CY Radio. This is the Pipe Man here on the Adventures of Pipe Man W4CY Radio, and I'm very excited about our next guest for many reasons. Great author, great ideas, great things she does to help people. But also what I really love is I'm a Jew, she's a Muslim, and we get along. And that's the way it should be. And so let's welcome to the show Kirana Siddin.

0:47 Hi, Dean, the Pipe Man. Thank you so much for bringing me to your show. It's been an honor to me, and I can't wait to have this wonderful conversation with you, my Jewish fellow. Yes, and So this came about because you were going to be a guest. You were looking to be a guest and are a guest on another show on our network. And you and I started talking because there's so much going on in the world right now that is smoke and mirrors, in my opinion. It's the powers that be that are using the old trick book, Divide and Conquer, to divide all of us and make us hate each other, when in all reality, that's not the truth. And, you know, people think it's one side or the other, and it really isn't.

1:42 We're all human beings. And the fact is, is if you remove political leaders and people trying to divide us, Muslims and Jews do get along and do love each other. You know, it's what we don't love. are the politics and the leaders and all that goes along with that. And so that's a big reason I brought you on the show, to show people that you and I can be from different parts of the world, different religions, and still be on the same page. Yeah, that's great to start, yeah. Because one thing that's very important to me, especially as a Muslim woman, yeah, is that I see Islam as a peaceful religion. That's for me. Being deeply connected to my faith doesn't mean I need to see people from other religion as less connected to me as human beings, right? I grew up in Indonesia where Muslim, Christian, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, and people with different beliefs live alongside each other. From a very young age, we're taught that difference is simply part of life.

2:55 it's also reflected in our national values. It's Pancasila and Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means like unity in diversity. And I think those values are still very much of how much Indonesian live. Of course, we're not perfect. There are tensions and negative incidents. But overall, we're quite accustomed to being different while still sharing the same space. community and country peacefully so yeah for me that's also shape how i see faith i can believe in islam while someone else believes in christianity judaism or another faith we don't have to arrive at the same spiritual conclusion to treat each other which with respect right and i think sometimes we become to attach to labels as a muslim as christian as jewish indonesian and so on And forget that before any of those identities, we're simply a human, right? So, yeah, we all have fears. We all have hopes. People we love loses with experience and a desire to feel safe and understood. So I don't think like coexistence means saying we're all the same. Yeah, of course we're not. But it means being different and still choosing not to dehumanize each other. That's really important for me. Yeah, and for me, that's what faith should do, right? If my faith teaches

4:25 me compassion, dignity, kindness, and respect, then those values should extend to people who believe differently from me. It's simple as that. Sometimes we don't need to completely understand someone's faith or worldview to over them dignity, no. We just need to be human enough to try. That's, I think, the most important thing. So, yeah, and maybe that's why when I think about all of this conversation around religion and identity, I come back to something very simple. So before, like, we ask, what religion are you? Or before we ask, where are you from? Or before we ask, what do you believe? Maybe we just need to ask, how can I treat you as another human being? So, yeah, as simple as that.

5:09 No doubt. And that's why we get along because we were talking about that. Yeah. I'm also a firm believer as somebody that did this myself, that everybody should study all religions, not to believe in them, but to understand and respect the differences and the similarities. Because we all go by the basic foundation. There's just very subtle differences sometimes. And the thing is, is that we take the extremists and any type of people, religion, people, whatever, And we make that the stereotype. And that's not the stereotype.

5:51 I've read the Quran and I agree with you. It's a peaceful book. It's the fundamental terrorists that take it and twist the words around and make it something that is not peaceful. But that's not, if you actually study, instead of, I think people, instead of being influenced by others, You need to make your own decision, educate yourself, and you will see a lot more. Another thing is, too, is I think everybody in the world needs to travel all over because then you get such an education and an eye-opening experience. I think you and I had a conversation where I said, A, I've been in Indonesia for a few months. Yeah, yeah. B, I was in Netherlands all the time I'm there. And like in the Netherlands, I'll speak there first and then we'll go to Indonesia.

6:46 But I was living in a neighborhood that had a lot of Muslims in it. Yeah, exactly. If that were the case in other places, including the United States, Jews might be like fearful or people might be fearful because of what we're told. And let me tell you something, just humans, you know, and like, I got along great with everybody and there, I had, I had a lot less fear living in a Muslim neighborhood in the Netherlands than I, and then I would in certain neighborhoods in the United States where we are divided, you know, because there was no division there. We were just all a bunch of people that lived there. It didn't matter what walk of life or what have you.

7:34 And if you just sit down and talk to somebody that's different from you, you'll find out that they're not that different is the point. And I love what you said about respect because I think that's something society has lost recently. You know, and with everything that's going on, listen, don't blame the people, blame the governments, blame the political leaders, you know, and they're the ones stirring us up to hate each other and let's not give them that control. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think what you said is all is on point, yeah. I think we've been solved this wrong version of also kind of like, you know, we already got so many information that probably like that like being steering to, we don't know, yeah. We don't know who has that kind of benefit to that some kind of information, right? But sometimes, yeah, I think media to always like big, make it something bigger than it's, I think, But the realization or the expectation, it's not something like that, right? But people will always like telling you something and then people are just, okay, so that's what happened. And then just people like have this some kind of stigma that, yeah, being Muslim is like this and being Jewish like this and become someone that Christian is more like this. And then they're like, they're not like us. And then they have so many like hate us, hate us. that have so many head

9:06 toward us. So that I think the information also some kind of something that may deal to that also like making it more worse for us to living as a human in this nowadays world. And also like just sit together just because we're human. It's not like we're like having this kind of some kind of different religion and also different faith and probably different political views too probably. And then we're just like being boxes, each other. So yeah, I think, yeah, there is something that you like more that the problem that we're dealing with the nowhere this world that people were always telling us, yeah, there's some kind of information that probably is not right. But yeah, it's always happening all the time. it's like and it's more like the gap is bigger than ever so yeah I think yeah we have to learn again what against yeah and then what you said that about you being like uh learn learn educate yourself yeah it's really correct because yeah if we cannot like we cannot like uh make a conclusion or we cannot like learn about something if we're not like jump into that into that lesson and then we're just uh learning by mass by ourself rather than we only like listen to the others right and then telling you something that probably is not right it's not quite right and then there is something that we have to discover by ourself Is it something, is it true or not? Yeah, so that is, I think, educated ourselves. Yeah, it's really correct. And also, I really like,

10:40 also agree with the idea with you that, yeah, probably sometimes you have to traveling more to know what really happening to the world that you probably have some kind of assumption before, right? People will see that being in the Muslim country like Indonesia probably, And then you will feel that. And then you probably are Jewish. And then people will think that I will probably, I will get hate there from the people in Indonesia. But in fact, you already like experience it. You didn't get that some kind of treatment right from us as a Indonesian and also Muslim. And you're living in that kind of neighborhood. So yeah, I think that is a very good start if you have that some kind of source for always like do traveling. So you can really know what really exists in this, And then what your assumption toward the thing that happening in the other side of your world.

11:38 Is really happening. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to your point, when I was in Indonesia, the people I met there are some of the nicest people I've ever met in the world. Yeah. And one thing that really. Impressed me was, like you were saying, is I was going to all these different, you know, mosques. And Hindu temples. And like, I even went into this one, you have to climb into in like a cave and it's shared by Buddhists and Hindus. Like it's a Buddhist and Hindu temple. And I'm like, I remember getting in there. I'm like, now this is the way it should be because you know what? The fact of the matter is, You know, even with the differences in our traditions, the traditions are great.

12:28 And maybe experience those other traditions and understand them instead of hating people because their traditions are different than yours. And I got to tell you, too, like I remember one in the like one of the first more days, like when I first checked into a hotel. forget what hour it was, but I heard what sounded like a concert in the background. Okay. And I didn't know what it was. Okay. And I was like, Whoa, what is that? And I literally went out to see if there's like some kind of cool event going on or some concert. And it was really just, it was really just the mosque on those different hours where it does that.

13:16 And, and I was like, wow, that's really cool. Like if you would have told me about that ahead of time, like people do. It's not the same as experiencing it. So it's like people could talk about that and think it may turn it into a bad thing. And I just thought it was really cool. You know, it was like an experience. And I think that's what people need to start to learn. Just experience things. You don't have to believe in them, but experience them. And even to the point of what we're talking about, okay, anti-Semitism is so rampant nowadays because of what's going on with Israel and Palestine. But the bottom line is, people, it's not about Israelis. It's not about Palestinians. It's not about Persian people.

14:08 It's about the regime. It's about Hamas. It's about Hezbollah. It's about the Israeli government. Stop making these leaders and these governments the example of the people as a whole because in Israel, I can tell you for a fact that Muslims and Jews, for the most part, walk in harmony. They're free to have religious freedom in Israel. LGBTQ people have freedom. I think a lot of people in my country right now that are protesting Jews, and they are protesting Jews, not just Israelis.

14:51 And I think. They don't realize that if you go to Israel, you would probably be accepted more than you would other places, even though you think that you're not accepted there. And I think that's true of a lot of places. In the world. And even with What's going on in Iran? I have a lot of Persian friends. The Persians and the Jews have always gotten along. It's the regime that's always been the problem. And the regime is oppressing people. The regime is doing things. And that is what causes all this conflict.

15:33 So stop blaming Iranians. Stop blaming Jews. Stop blaming Israelis. Stop blaming Muslims. Stop blaming Christians. Start blaming people that want us divided and want us hating each other so that they can all get what they want and none of us get what we want. Oh my God, I do really agree that all of that you say. I think I'm glad that you bring it to this conversation because that's what I feel. You know that? I always think that is not something to do with the people itself. It's always been a regime, the government, the political ideas behind it that makes me getting worse and worse each day. So yeah, that's basically, I really love your explanation before about something that people is like getting along, Muslim and Jewish, like getting along in Israel. Can you do something? Can you tell me more about it? because I really like Korea's.

16:40 Well, you mean what I was talking about, what happens in Israel, correct? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so in Israel, believe it or not, most people don't know this unless they visit Israel. It's one of the most liberal places on the planet, even though it has a conservative government. And it's the conservative government that's extreme. It's not that they're conservative, it's that they're extreme. You know, listen, I'm a Jew. That doesn't mean I have to like Netanyahu, okay? Mm-hmm. But that does mean I do like Israel and I do like my Israeli people, you know. And the thing is, when you walk around Israel, there's a predominant amount of Muslims there. It's not just Jews.

17:21 There's a predominant amount of Christians there. There's people from all walks of life and everybody is free to do it. Now, and I'm not saying it in a bad way towards Palestinians because, again, it's not about the people. But because of Hamas being in control of the Palestinian area, that's not necessarily. True when you go there. Because if you're a woman, if you're LGBTQ or anything like that, you don't really have rights in some parts of the world like that. In Israel, women have the same rights as men. People in LGBTQ have the same rights as people.

18:04 That are not. And they all live in harmony. I know plenty of Israelis I'm friends with that some of their best friends are Muslims that live in Israel and can live peacefully in Israel. And same going with Iran. There's many Iranians that live in Israel. And they're freer. Than they are in their own country. Why? Because of the regime. You know, because as you know, in countries like that, even in Indonesia, as you know, your government can be quite oppressive, you know, the government itself. But the people are like some of the nicest people in the world I ever met.

18:52 Like, it's wild. When I was there, every single day you pass by somebody, they smile at you and say hello. And greet you. Yeah, and greet you, right? That doesn't happen here in the United States, I can tell you, especially where I live. It's like people, you say hello to them, they look at you like. They're free heads. Right, exactly. Doing like, hi, how are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was like, wow, this is really cool. You know, and that's the way it should be everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think it's kind of sad that I just like hear some kind of this relative coming from you. Because like, once again, we're being sold that different kind of version that happening in the other world. Yeah, in this different country in the world. Yeah, that probably people are telling us, yeah, Israel is just like this and all. Palestine is just like this. I think, yeah, there's some, because like the information that coming to us is not something that probably right, right? Because like this is eventually make some kind of gap every day and more like miss making it more bigger, the problem, even though they probably in the reality, the people who just leave each other like, and then always get, get along it's not something that they want to like to uh to bring into the table right so yeah i think this is some kind of really a sad sad thing

20:23 to hear yeah from you because yeah i want to hear something about this more because yeah i think world nowadays you really need the this some kind of you know information because yeah We live in the world full of chaos right now. We cannot say that it's okay. But in Indonesia here, there is very strong sympathy for the Palestinian people. And I think that's influenced by a combination of our history, our religious values, our moral policy, and simply a sense of community when people see civilian suffering. But personally, I try to separate political position from how I see people, right? I can stand for the rights and dignity of Palestinians without believing that I need to hate Jewish people, as they say. Or people who have a different perspective from mine. So that is basically. So for me, that's where faith and humanity have to meet.

21:20 I can be deeply rooted in my own faith and still believe that people of different faith, different religions deserve dignity, the same dignity, the same respect and the same safety. So yeah, I don't think we need to agree on every political or religious question to recognize each other's humanity. So I think what you said before is really make me feels getting some kind of hope into the humanity right now, you know? I think that I want to hear more because we live in the world that full of chaos right now, yeah. Well, and you think about it, okay, listen, If we weren't divided and we were all united with all our differences, the people of power would have no power. That's why they divide us. Because we would have strength against them.

22:16 And if we want to solve the world's problems and all get along, we need to band together and not listen to the media anymore. and the political, because the media is influenced by the politicians nowadays more. Than ever, you know? And, like, I know in your country, as well as many countries, even my own country, you know, even now, in our country where we have quote-unquote free and limited press, it's really not free and limited press anymore here a lot of times. Like, if you say something that leaders don't like, it gets blocked. You know? And I know that happens in many other countries, including yours. Like, if there's certain things.

23:00 People say that America is full of freedom, right? Right. People always say that America is the country with so much freedom to speech or whatever. But indeed, you experience that kind of thing. So I think it's really sad. Exactly. And then the fact of the matter is, like, talking about the Palestinian people, okay? They're just people. They're just human beings. They're not the issue. The issue is Hamas. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the influence that that has and what is being said and what is brainwashing people, you know, and they don't want Israelis and Palestinians to be together because then they might talk like you and I are talking now and find out we're not so different. and that we do love each other, and that we don't.

23:56 Have these. Ideas that the propaganda promotes. I mean, I even think of the thing with the genocide thing. I don't know. Six million Jews getting killed is a genocide. I don't even consider what happened on October 7th in Israel a genocide, okay? I think we're throwing around these words. I don't think the Israelis want to eliminate Palestinians. They want to eliminate Hamas. They want to eliminate the regime. That's hugely different, okay?

24:38 And the fact is, Palestinians and Jews have gotten along for centuries, except when the government gets involved. And when they're pitting us against each other, and there is a campaign of hate out there. Right now on all sides. Exactly. On all sides. And it's ridiculous because we are all humans. We have our differences. I think we should love each other's differences. It'd be a boring planet if we were all exactly the same, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my belief is when it comes to religion....

25:20 If what you believe in makes you a better person and makes you feel good, that is all that counts. You don't have to believe what I believe. Some people connect with certain things more than others. And I also think, too, that you can take a little bit from everything, which is what I do. We're taught in Judaism not to believe the Torah but to study Torah. We're also taught that it's a commandment by God to question everything and question God and question the Bible and question Torah, not believe it. Because that's how we learn, with questions, okay? And the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, we all have certain things we gravitate to or that we grew up with that just becomes tradition or habit.

26:15 But for somebody like me, I also have Buddhist philosophies. I like some of the Hindu philosophies. I like some Muslim philosophies. I like some Christian philosophies. And as a Jew, I feel that's okay because we don't have to just be one way. Things aren't black and white. And really, do we really know the truth? Do we really know what's going to happen? We don't. So why not just all get along, love each other, respect the differences instead of hating them? Yeah, I actually think this is something we really need to learn as a world. Yeah, I'm a Muslim once again, and I believe Islam is peaceful religion. But being deeply rooted in my own faith doesn't mean I have to see people from other religion as somehow less connected to me as human.

27:04 Beings, right? I grew up in Indonesia, where different religions live alongside each other. So I've learned that we don't have to agree on everything in order to respect each other, just like what you said before. I can't believe in Islam. Someone else can't believe, once again, in Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or another faith. Just probably like you, that trying to make sense of all of the religion, and then you can basically implement it in your everyday life, right? And then We don't have to arrive at the same spiritual conclusion to treat each other with dignity. And I think, yes, sometimes we make coexistence more complicated than it actually is.

27:48 It doesn't mean that, yeah, it doesn't mean we have to erase our differences or pretend that all religions are the same. Yeah, we are not the same. Yeah, yeah, we're not the same. It's simply we're different. But yeah. It simply means we don't allow those differences to erase our humanity. And we do have one thing that's the same. Yeah. As simple as that. The thing that's the same for all religions is the whole basis of religion is to become a better person. Yeah. That's where we're all the same. Yeah. So if you're not being a better person because of religion, that's on you.

28:29 And to me, hating others. Fear, creating fear, that's not being a better person. That's another thing, too. Fear is a big thing that causes religious hate. I don't believe that God or Allah or any spiritual thing like that is based in fear, nor should it be. I don't want to be part of any religion... That makes me want to fear God. Like there's certain people that are like, fear God. Why should I fear God? Isn't God supposed to be loving?

29:09 Yes, exactly. We should all love each other, not fear each other. And God should love all of their children. And no matter what it is. And I think so many people don't understand religion. And that's where the fear and hate comes in. Because. They just go by certain things, but they don't really understand it as a whole. Just like I said, in Judaism, we spend our whole life studying Torah, not believing it. You know, there's some people out there that teach people, oh, just believe it because I said so. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:49 No, don't believe it because I said so. Find out for yourself. And I guarantee you, if you took the time to understand all the religions in the world, That you'll find the common ground instead of the hate. Yeah, yeah. I think what you said is really right. Because, yeah, we've been sold this. I think, yeah, we're not like learning it, educated ourselves into the something that probably people taught me. People taught us to that kind of religion. The religion itself is not wrong at all. It's really right. as you said before, it makes us into a better version of human beings, right? But the problem is you.

30:33 You don't really pay attention, and then you don't really, like, make time for yourself to really study it. And then you just, like, because you're being taught, yeah, to probably with the leader, the leader of your religion, yeah, for me, like, probably Ustad in Islam, And then just being told that some kind of person. But indeed, we have to really study it to know better and understand it more. And then we can have our own decision, right? And then because if or do we get some kind of conclusion and then we just get some kind of point that, yeah, my faith, my religion asks me to do this. Because this is something that probably better for us to become for a better human being. And also this is something that people always telling us to do. And then that is something that also really right for us to do.

31:32 And eventually our Prophet Muhammad also taught us to always be kind to other religion. That is something that our Prophet Muhammad is already taught. telling us centuries ago, like years before all of this, they always like to always like treat Jewish people nicely. He always taught us to always treat Christian people nicely. And then he just like always like give, you know, that story about the beggar that always like make him into someone that nice, Muhammad, but yeah, He always try to be nice again and again.

32:15 So yeah, that's, I think basically the, the idea about the religion itself, it's, it has to really have to be better person. Yeah. Because the religion told you to do so. It's not, and it's not, if, if you're like, you're getting into the wrong direction and you are not doing a side of that direction, I think you've been wrong when you learn to it. So yeah. Yeah. And so, I love that we can have this conversation. And, like, so people can realize that we can just be friends. We don't have to be the same. Yes. You don't have to be.

32:56 We have this thing nowadays that everybody has, in order for you to be a friend, you have to believe the exact same way. No. I learn way more from people different than me, than people the same as me. Mm-hmm. We don't have to be the same. And that's something I do learn in some other countries like your country, because even as an example, the hijab. OK, I don't know why there's people out there, especially in my country, that. Look at that as a problem. OK, like who cares? You know, I mean, stuff like that. So what? It's your belief. Yeah. How does it affect my life anyway, how you dress, how you do things?

33:40 That's the point. That's the point. People worry way too much about things that don't affect their life in any way, shape, or form. And Jews aren't that much different because in Orthodox Judaism, the women are supposed to shave their heads and wear a wig. It's not much different of. A tradition or a belief. It's just a different variety of it, you know? Yeah, yes, exactly. Islam also has a different variety, yeah. Exactly, and that's what I learned being in countries like yours, countries like the Netherlands. It's like, you know, the Muslim people, the Muslim women can walk around peacefully in their hijab and nobody looks at it a certain way. Yet here in my country, unfortunately, there's like these people that will go and like, Take your hijab off. It's like, why?

34:32 What do you care what they're doing? If they're not doing anything bad, it doesn't matter. So we just have, as you said in the beginning, respect each other, love each other, understand each other. And I'm sure you'll find out things are way different than what you've been taught because you've been taught fear and hate. And let's teach love and peace instead. That's the only way we're ever really going to get world peace, is stop letting the political leaders influence us and unite together. Now, on that note, there's a lot of things you do to help people.

35:15 And you have a book and you have a website and you have things that really do help people. So I want you to talk a little bit about that, of what you do, how you help people, what your book is about, and... you know, how they can check you out online, in socials, and get your book. Yeah, okay. Thank you so much, Dean. So, basically, my book is non-fiction, yes. It's probably people can classify it into self-help book, but I think that it's less self-help. It's more like a reflective non-fiction book. Yeah, basically, it's telling us how we can build a good life. something that not looks impressive from the outside, but we feel it from the inside. That's basically the idea of the book itself. So yeah, that's basically, I talk about, there is more like a collection of my personal essay that two years that I do this. And then, yeah, I try to write it in my blog and then eventually it become 100 and it's become the book itself right now, Cheers for a Good Life. It's talking about how to build a good life And it's like draws from philosophy, psychology, and also timeless with them and also everyday even. So yeah, it's basically more like invitation to slow down, to take a look again to yourself, yeah? And then begin to assumption,

36:48 questioning your assumption towards something that you experience or something that you witness. And I try to not preachy there. Yeah, I try to really like, some kind of cozy conversation with a friend that probably been there, done that. It's me. And also, I like to try to say it like this. It's part philosophy. It's part essentialism. It's part cozy conversation where Marcus Aurelius meets Gilmore Girls and TLC somehow makes a cameo. So that's a book. It's for you. I live in Indonesia and I'm hijabi like this. But, you know, I'm pretty like being engrossed to the idea of culture, too.

37:33 It's not really different from you guys. I love movie. I love concert. I love music. OK, I love TLC. You know, that band from 90s that R & B things that I love. And also Gilmore Girls. So, yeah, basically we're the same again if we want to back. with the idea before that we're talking about, yeah. We're just, I just like you and you just like me. So yeah, we just like the same. So yeah, that's basically my book is, yeah. And on how to build a good life and also what does it mean to live a good life in this world? So yeah, that's my book. And yeah, I also do coaching too. Yeah. My area of expertise is more like gaining clarity. And by the end of the day, you will get a better decision and, Yeah.

38:18 So if you want to get to know more about me and in my book, I have to mention it also. Yeah. I also like put some kind of my faith there. Yeah. It's like, because, and then it's not about, uh, exclusively, but I think it's tied up to the idea, to that idea that I want to, uh, you know, that I want to emphasize. So, yeah, it's not, it's not something that, uh, specifically Muslim. No, it's not something that I just want people to also have that some kind of paradigm of Islam. Yeah. that Islam is also teaching us something the same, like the other, probably either idea, timeless wisdom, and also philosophy, and also psychology. So that's, I think, the most important thing about my book too.

39:03 I put my faith also there. But yeah, so that's my book and also my coaching practice. Basically, you can visit cheersforagoodlife.com. Thank you so much, Dean. Thank you so much for all that you do and how you help people and for being my amazing Muslim sister. Me as well. It's such an honor to be a Jewish fellow like you. I think that I also like gain some kind of point of view, yeah? That I do not like get it from the people that I do really know. So yeah, I think this is really insightful point to me too that I can more like, I think it's more like Yes, I think I already like, I have this already thinking about the Jewish people indeed. But yeah, what you said is really like making it more like strengthening my assumption and also my conclusion. So thank you so much.

40:00 My pleasure. And thank you for being on the Adventures of Pipe Man. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Adventures of Pipe Man. On W4CUI Radio.